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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Is there really such a thing left in our great state? Don't get me wrong as I favor C&R but fisherman aren't the problem! We (fly/bait fisherman) have little effect on the big picture and account for less than 5% of the fish caught, usually much less than that. Most of the fish we now call wild are really hybreds of mixed orgin. The state in all its wisdom has in the past transplanted fish to/from almost every river at one time or another. So what's that leave, a bunch of Heniz 57 fish, a little this and a little that! Saving wild fish is a nobel idea and should be commended for those whom choose to participate. The state knows these facts very well and I'm not to sure if even they can tell which fish are NATIVE anymore. Instead they group those not marked as WILD. There is a big difference, wild means they spawned naturally but genetically there is no difference between them and hatchery fish. So I pose the question for all, is there really any NATIVE steelhead left? Wild steelhead? Depends on your definition I guess. One more point if the state has its way they'd close down all the hatcheries, what's that leave to catch then? Wait a second they already closed more than half of them, hmmmmm..........
OK, my lunch is over back to work, later all, Jim
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
My point was that making all wild steelhead in our state C&R isn’t going to solve all our problems, its a good idea on the surface. The majority of our rivers are already that way, have been for quite a while. Maybe it should be kept on a river by river basis, as some are in relatively better condition than others. Some our coastal rivers are the best, being farther from population centers. Inland waters have suffered the most and are in more need of better regulation. As you know fly fishing C&R has much less effect on fish released then bait caught fish. The mortality rate for those fish isn’t very good because they tend to swallow the bait. Which is better letting fisherman have their one or two fish or letting them catch all day possibly injuring and killing many wild fish. I have seen this happen to many times, it’s a dilemma to say the least. As you point out there are many causes for the decline of our fisheries. The biggest are Native Americans and commercial gill netters, next would be environmental conditions, including logging, dams, pollution, etc. Something more extreme is needed to turn things around. Until all the agencies come together to reverse some of the damage done, I fear thing will continue to deteriorate. When 95% of the harvest-able fish is controlled by commercials, how much difference can we make. Look at what happened when we tried twice unsuccessfully to get the nets out. They (gill netters) threw lots of money at it because they knew it would make such a dramatic difference but people voted against it, why, because it didn’t include Native American’s, for them it’d still be business as usual. I don’t even want to get started on that issue. When have you ever seen a gill netter let wild fish go or non-targeted fish for that matter? NEVER! I repeat what I said before, “What you and I do makes little difference in the big picture”. You need to set your goals much higher if you want to change the status quo. You call me naive, I don’t think so, more of a realist. I’ve written letters to our elected officials and to the WDFW and yes I’ve gotten back some nice responses to my questions and opinions but what good has it done? Their going to do what ever they want regardless of what we say or think, its just good PR if they ask first. There is far to much politics involved in these decisions and to little scientific knowledge. You also seem to think we’re on different sides of the issue, fact is I agreed with most of what you say. Taking away more sports fisherman’s rights no matter how noble isn’t the answer, we have lost to many as it is. Next would be taking them all and not being able to fish, a real possibility! As fly fisherman, don’t take a mightier than thou attitude, we need to be united with those who choose to bait fish for the betterment of all, the opposition is counting on that. Until that happens they have nothing to fear. Every group has its own drum to beat, if you get enough drums together, they will be heard, one drum alone is only noise. And yet here we are again, arguing over who will catch the last fish! Shame, shame! We need to be fighting those things that have brought us to this, not against each other!
Jim
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
O Mykiss,
You have no clue how hatchery fish are spawned. And you are completely WRONG about wild and hatchery fish being genetically different. They are with very few exceptions one in the same!
Do your homework before you make statements that you know nothing about!
Jim
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Wishin there were fish

Trout Unlimited, are you kidding me. This is one of the groups that told their members to vote against banning nets! You call that part of the solution? And show me where I said C&R wouldn't do any good? I've seen it do good in several rivers already but only point out that it may not be needed in some/all places. As to having exact split for who gets what, I'm not so sure your numbers are absolute either, aren't those target numbers? What is it really? Above you say "about 30%" as if your not quite sure. Only the state could give you the most accurate count, which I might add are estimates based on random samplings. And where did I say there were no more native fish? I also know about survival rates for hatchery fish not being very good for all your reasons stated. I still believe that damage has been done by cross breeding. True, some maybe even most of those fish as you say will not survive but some do and have, you can't dispute that small fact. Its there whether you want it to be or not. What you imply is that we should get rid of all the hatcheries, aren't they really part of the problem then? I also still disagree these fish being genetically different, I have seen/read articles that say our experts cannot tell difference between these stocks. Hatchery fish are taken from brood stock so how can they be genetically different? Now their behaviors will vary due to how they were raised and yes I know predators take more of them, where did I say otherwise? They are trying to change that by feeding them from the bottom of holding pens vs surface feeding. But it'll never be as good as nature does it, right? Also I have seen how they spawn hatchery eggs, they are not one female, one male mixed. In realality they're probably doing a better job than nature. They pick out the best fish and at various times during the entire run of returning fish.

Last, I am not the enemy here and shouldn't be attack for my view points or even my assumptions as you call them. All I did was bring up a subject that I thought would stimulate some discussion and it did. Right or wrong we are all entitled to our opinions, that's we need places like this to discuss and yes educate ourselves about those things that are important to ALL of us.
Thanks to all that took time to reply,
Jim
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Wishin there were fish

Oops, my wrong above on random samplings, sorry, I failed to include punch card data for those who bother to send them in. But that only accounts for the sports fisherman. Who's keeping track for the other side of the equation? Given the current state of under funding and cut backs at WDFW there will probably be less officers watch and keep records in the future.
Later, Jim
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Wishin there were fish

I've heard that they do estimate for those not returned, so even this data has a certain amount of flaw. It is important though to try and get as accurate count as possible. They just love numbers, don't they? haha
Jim
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Wishin there were fish

I guess that the random sampling was another one of my assumption. That is for monitoring the commercial and tribal fisherman. But I trust someone out there will correct me if I'm wrong, right? Good thing I better at fishing and sticking my foot in my mouth than I am at expressing myself. LOL This stuff gets way to serious sometimes. OK, I'm think I'm done for now, again.
Jim
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Wishin there were fish

I have nothing against them (TU) except for that one issue but they have done a lot of other good things. Groups like these do help in getting attention of our government officials. I also think they have done some hands on work out in the field with fixing habitat and the like. So I will not bad mouth them here or anywhere, they deserve our respect for their dedication and conservation efforts.
I will be the first to admitt I don't know as much as maybe I should and that I put most of my faith in those in the know.
As I stated before I am in favor of C&R but for the right reasons. Not just to throw a blanket on the whole state and call it good. Some places may not need it. I would think some might argue the same reason for not supporting the banning of nets apply to this issue, it won't affect tribal fishing. Their rights are protected by federal law and they won't be giving them up anytime soon. So why is it they don't get trashed for catching wild fish? Is that a double standard on our part? That's a tough one, huh? We just choose to pull out of a missle treaty with the Russians, why can't we do that with Native Americans? Let's not forget those casino's either. With the money they bring in from them they are buying power to use on other issues, including fishing. Enough said about that. I need to run for now, will get back to ya later. Thanks again to all who replied. Jim
 
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