So I live in Oregon. I'm out Carp fishing in the Columbia Gorge last weekend on the Washington side, and we stop at a popular windsurfing beach to have a tailgate lunch. We are sitting there having lunch and a Washington State official stops his vehicle and asks to see my parking permit. We have not left the car, we are not planning on using the beach or the facilities, and there are no signs in the vicinity of where we are parked mentioning a permit is needed. I tell him all of this and he says we can purchase a day pass for $10 or use our Discover Pass (which we don't have either). The various annual passes that I already have in my glove box won't work. At this point I am already parked and feel obligated to buy the day pass or risk him escalating the conversation. But here is my bigger frustration, they have a self serve dispenser for the $10 day pass, but there is no way to buy a $30 annual Discover Pass that would cover my adventures for the remainder of the year. Now I'm out the $10 and will still need to invest the $30 for future trips. Kind of leaves a bad taste in my mouth....... It would be nice if you could buy one pass that covers the Forest Pass, the Discover pass, the Monument pass, the Fishing access pass, and whatever other passes they plan on dreaming up to tax us for using public land. Thanks for letting me vent.....
chief
SFR - Between a Rock and Hard Place
Welcome to modern Washington. I don't believe in the pay to play mentality on public use lands, so I still hold out on buying any. So far it hasn't effected my fishing at all, except access to a couple carp flats. All that made me do was look around a little and find new, better flats.
I have my Discover Pass and actually even donated the $5 parks fee when I paid my vehicle tabs last week.
Why?
Because I appreciate and use our state parks and the Legislature has slashed their funding. ( Don't get me started on all the other useless stuff on which our state spends its money!) It's not the parks fault, the blame lies with our state government.
I'm a firm believer that state governments should tighten their belts just as all the rest of us have done with our household budgets. Is that gonna happen???
Duh.....
Anyway, sorry chief, that you had a bad experience north of the border. Here's an article that explains a bit better: http://seattletimes.com/html/politics/2018828146_parks02m.html
Why?
Because I appreciate and use our state parks and the Legislature has slashed their funding. ( Don't get me started on all the other useless stuff on which our state spends its money!) It's not the parks fault, the blame lies with our state government.
I'm a firm believer that state governments should tighten their belts just as all the rest of us have done with our household budgets. Is that gonna happen???
Duh.....
Anyway, sorry chief, that you had a bad experience north of the border. Here's an article that explains a bit better: http://seattletimes.com/html/politics/2018828146_parks02m.html
This horse has been beaten a few times since the DP introduction a few years ago, but it always makes me feel good to take a few more swings at WA's dumb ass policies -- so, I'm in. Not being able to buy the annual pass at the same self serve station does seem odd... but I'm certain there is a logical explanation that will trounce my just another well crafted way to make money conspiracy theory.
Once they're drunk on the punch, have developed a serious case of OPM syndrome, and found a flock of sheeple's wanting to be herded, there is no turning back until the money and motivation that generates it runs out.
Who is John Galt?
Who is John Galt?
It wouldn't bother me so much if it went directly to what it was intended for(maintenance and upkeep of certain sites). But it gets dumped into a general fund, very little goes to the parks. The carp flats I need a discover pass for now aren't even slightly developed, except for a two rut track.
ive seen a few, including the one at saltwater state park that have the option to buy an annual and no extra dealer fee either
Triploid Junkie-
Have you not bothered to check where the money goes, or do you just not believe the official statement? Just curious.
Q. Which agencies receive the money from the Discover Pass fee?
A. The revenue will be shared among the three agencies as follows:
Q. Will all of the revenue from the Discover Pass be used for recreation on state lands?
A. Yes. Revenue will be used for the purpose of operating and maintaining recreation lands and facilities. Legislation requires that all revenue received from the sales of the Discover Pass go directly into the Recreation Access Pass Account.
Q. How can I be assured that the funds will be used to support recreation?
A. The purpose of the legislation is to provide operating funds in place of the general fund tax dollars no longer available for recreation. The operating philosophy of the legislation is that it is fair to ask those who use state recreation lands to pay for them directly. All of the revenue from the Discover Pass goes toward providing recreation access on state recreation lands.
Have you not bothered to check where the money goes, or do you just not believe the official statement? Just curious.
Q. Which agencies receive the money from the Discover Pass fee?
A. The revenue will be shared among the three agencies as follows:
- 84 percent to State Parks
- 8 percent Fish and Wildlife
- 8 percent Department of Natural Resources
Q. Will all of the revenue from the Discover Pass be used for recreation on state lands?
A. Yes. Revenue will be used for the purpose of operating and maintaining recreation lands and facilities. Legislation requires that all revenue received from the sales of the Discover Pass go directly into the Recreation Access Pass Account.
Q. How can I be assured that the funds will be used to support recreation?
A. The purpose of the legislation is to provide operating funds in place of the general fund tax dollars no longer available for recreation. The operating philosophy of the legislation is that it is fair to ask those who use state recreation lands to pay for them directly. All of the revenue from the Discover Pass goes toward providing recreation access on state recreation lands.
My other vice is 4X4ing. We hear the same complaints on that side also (I sit on a DNR advisory group for Walker Valley). The ironic thing is that when the state was talking about cutting funding for recreational land use, the overwhelming sentiment at the public hearings which were held all over the state, was that we needed a funding source that was not dependent on the whims of the legislature. Now that we have one, no one likes having to pay directly for recreational use.
I love this debate after spending the first 55 years of my life in New York where everything is taxed. I've learned that "public" doesn't mean free, especially, if the public expects a certain quality in the resources. If people need to perform a service on something it shouldn't be an expectation for it be free. I believe that a large part of the economic problems in this country are the result of an expectation of something for nothing or close to nothing. We Americans make purchase decisions by price point in spite of carrying the banner of "Buy American" so crap is made overseas and sold at Wallyworld at a price the local Mom and Pop can't compete with. One should expect to pay for what they use or consume. I would prefer to pay a user fee than a State income tax (how NY pays for these things and a HUGE State government).
I hate fees as much as anyone, but will gladly buy a Discover Pass.
I've lived here my whole life and really enjoy visiting our state parks and recreation areas.
I won't let $30.00 per year stop me from going to places and doing the things I enjoy.
Last year, I figure the pass cost me less then a $1 per visit. That is a good deal in my book, especially with the funds going towards the parks. Your mileage may vary.
SF
I've lived here my whole life and really enjoy visiting our state parks and recreation areas.
I won't let $30.00 per year stop me from going to places and doing the things I enjoy.
Last year, I figure the pass cost me less then a $1 per visit. That is a good deal in my book, especially with the funds going towards the parks. Your mileage may vary.
SF
If there has been any improvements since these extra fees(yes extra) have come into play, I've yet to see it. Just the opposite from my perspective. I pay way too much in taxes as a small business owner, buy my Washington fishing license, which for me should include fishing Washington state land without an added fee to park on the same land. I might be misinformed, but I'm no suckerfish.
A quick Civics lesson. While we may view it all as the "government". They (which really means us if you really think it through...) don't see it that way. They see it as city and county parks and land, state land (State Parks, WDFW access points, DNR land), and federal land (Park Service, Forest Service, BLM, etc.). Because they never went to kindergarten (they're governments, they can't go to school...), they never learned to share. But each has employees to pay, gas to buy. repairs to make, middle and upper managers to pay.... etc.
It used to be that we paid a chunk of taxes into a general pool and government paid out money to do "good works" (your opinion may diverge... - beside the point). Specific taxes were unconnected to specific expenses. But, because tax revenues have not kept pace with the costs (or desire to spend. I'll let that one slide.), government has shifted to a more ala carte model for some functions. If you use it, you pay for it (or at least some of it. Take a look at how much of WDFW budget comes from the General Fund - little old ladies in Tacoma who never use WDFW or Microserfs who would freak out if they left their cubicles). If there is a constituency with the means to pay (after all, you can't get blood from a turnip) and if the service that the constituency desires is hard to argue as a CENTRAL function of government, costs have been shifted toward that constituency = user fees (look carefully at the details on your next plane ticket...).
Therefore, you may be asked to pay at a city or county park (not common in Washington). To access many areas of state land, you need a Discovery Pass for State Park, DNR, or WDFW accesses or just your WDFW parking permit for WDFW access. If you are fishing or accessing fishing on Federal land or via Federal accesses (e.g., parking at Lmuma or Big Pines / The Slab (= BLM land) on the Yakima or Coldwater Lake in Mt. St. Helens National Monument (= Forest Service Land), you need one of several possible Federal passes, such as the America the Beautiful Annual Pass. I can't believe how many times I've seen fishers parking in the Coldwater Parking lot who think that the Fed will accept their WDFW parking permit - flunked civics.... In some rivers, like the Hoh or the Yak or even lakes, like Chopaka, you might need a state pass for one access and a federal pass for another access.
Yes, each of them has a fee. Yes, it is a confusing list of acronyms, just like PMD, EHC, which we all managed to master.... Yes, it costs you money. Still, it is less that the cost of a round of golf for each.... And what would you rather do?
Steve
It used to be that we paid a chunk of taxes into a general pool and government paid out money to do "good works" (your opinion may diverge... - beside the point). Specific taxes were unconnected to specific expenses. But, because tax revenues have not kept pace with the costs (or desire to spend. I'll let that one slide.), government has shifted to a more ala carte model for some functions. If you use it, you pay for it (or at least some of it. Take a look at how much of WDFW budget comes from the General Fund - little old ladies in Tacoma who never use WDFW or Microserfs who would freak out if they left their cubicles). If there is a constituency with the means to pay (after all, you can't get blood from a turnip) and if the service that the constituency desires is hard to argue as a CENTRAL function of government, costs have been shifted toward that constituency = user fees (look carefully at the details on your next plane ticket...).
Therefore, you may be asked to pay at a city or county park (not common in Washington). To access many areas of state land, you need a Discovery Pass for State Park, DNR, or WDFW accesses or just your WDFW parking permit for WDFW access. If you are fishing or accessing fishing on Federal land or via Federal accesses (e.g., parking at Lmuma or Big Pines / The Slab (= BLM land) on the Yakima or Coldwater Lake in Mt. St. Helens National Monument (= Forest Service Land), you need one of several possible Federal passes, such as the America the Beautiful Annual Pass. I can't believe how many times I've seen fishers parking in the Coldwater Parking lot who think that the Fed will accept their WDFW parking permit - flunked civics.... In some rivers, like the Hoh or the Yak or even lakes, like Chopaka, you might need a state pass for one access and a federal pass for another access.
Yes, each of them has a fee. Yes, it is a confusing list of acronyms, just like PMD, EHC, which we all managed to master.... Yes, it costs you money. Still, it is less that the cost of a round of golf for each.... And what would you rather do?
Steve
Shitballs!!! It sounds like it's the sport is turning into golf. Pretty soon I'll need a caddy to carry all my five weights.
Move to CA and register your car there; then we'll see how much you don't like Timmy! There are plenty of "discovery" sites that will also take your WDFW access pass-the one that came with your fishing license. It'll say that on the bottom of the sign. Forest pass is superceded by the senior lifetime access pass you can get at places like Glacier Peak and forest "service" stations, for just $10, but you gotta be 62 or older. So there's some breaks out there, especially if you're older than dirt, like me!
Realistically, this is already the case. You only need two passes to cover all public access in Washington: One state and one federal.
Washington's Discover Pass covers all State Parks, DNR and WDFW lands for day use. $30 annually.
http://www.discoverpass.wa.gov/
Federal America the Beautiful covers all USFS, National Park Service, BLM and National Wildlife Refuge day-use NATION WIDE. $80
http://www.recreation.gov/marketing.do?goto=/ATBPass/America the Beautiful Pass Series.html
Note that anyone aged 62 or older can get this pass for $10 and its good for the rest of their lives.
Several comments......having run a fee program for a major federal agency for ten years prior to retirement.
1) One pass. Forget it. We did spend time with all the Federal, state, and some local agencies trying to come up with one pass. Revenue sharing is the problem. Lots of effort for little gain. There were some passes that crossed lines, but they have disappeared over time. Vote with your checkbook. If you want the money to go the Forest Service, buy your pass there. The BLM, National Park Service, etc. That's my issue with the Discovery Pass I want MY MONEY to go to DNR not state parks.
2) The public lands were never set up to make money or even be self-supporting on the recreation program. In my Forest Economics classes we determined the marginal log (the part of the tree that you left in the woods) since it wouldn't pay for its way out of the timber sale. For recreation, it was how much money do you want to lose??
This is the elephant in the room nobody talks about. Recreation programs will never pay their own way!! They were not designed to do that.....it is a social good. Now we can make them pay their own way....see KOA's, etc. Is that what you want your public lands to look like??
State Parks is going to go through round 3 soon.
3) Government employees are bad businessmen. They let political pressures trump economics everytime. My viewpoint was that 40% of the campgrounds and probably over half the trail system needed to be closed. Not public access, just the facilities since they were little used. I retired rather than fight that battle.....the decision was made to close .01% of facilities. Nobody in the agency wanted to fight that battle with the public. So we end up with lots of bad, little used recreation sites instead of providing quality facilities that we could maintain.
4) Eyeman and government costs. The issue is not tax revenues. It is tax breaks for large corporations in Washington state and health care and other social service costs. Yeah, I know corporations do NOT pay taxes only collect them, but in the case of Washington state it meant people like the Sultan of Brunai paid Washington state taxes. Large corporations are also very efficient at collecting taxes. Right now in Washington, the tax burden is on consumers and small business. Even with that tax revenues are at record highs.
Health care and other social service costs. A friend that follows the state budget says that health care is where all the state money is going. Social service costs are difficult to cut.....so we cut higher education, state parks and those type of programs instead. Have a discussion with YOUR legislator about YOUR priorities.
5) Government regulation. Yes, the government regulates itself and spends lots of money on paperwork in the process. I had secured funding for a no-brainer move of a campground to protect fisheries. The studies and NEPA documents when completed took the ENTIRE campground construction money!! I ended up shifting funds just to get it built, since the permit would expire in about five years or so.
Public land funding levels have not really changed that much over 40 years....but the money now is spend on studies instead of "real stuff".
The good news is as the baby boom generation ages and dies, health care costs will fall. The bad news is that demand for public lands will also fall given current demographics. In 20 years, the issue will be keeping public lands in public ownership since very few people will care about them.
Recreation is just one benefit of public lands. We really need to maintain public access to ALL public lands and keep them in public ownership.
In the short run, it will be about fees. Soon the discussion will shift to "should we have public lands" since we cannot afford them. Get ready for that fight.
1) One pass. Forget it. We did spend time with all the Federal, state, and some local agencies trying to come up with one pass. Revenue sharing is the problem. Lots of effort for little gain. There were some passes that crossed lines, but they have disappeared over time. Vote with your checkbook. If you want the money to go the Forest Service, buy your pass there. The BLM, National Park Service, etc. That's my issue with the Discovery Pass I want MY MONEY to go to DNR not state parks.
2) The public lands were never set up to make money or even be self-supporting on the recreation program. In my Forest Economics classes we determined the marginal log (the part of the tree that you left in the woods) since it wouldn't pay for its way out of the timber sale. For recreation, it was how much money do you want to lose??
This is the elephant in the room nobody talks about. Recreation programs will never pay their own way!! They were not designed to do that.....it is a social good. Now we can make them pay their own way....see KOA's, etc. Is that what you want your public lands to look like??
State Parks is going to go through round 3 soon.
3) Government employees are bad businessmen. They let political pressures trump economics everytime. My viewpoint was that 40% of the campgrounds and probably over half the trail system needed to be closed. Not public access, just the facilities since they were little used. I retired rather than fight that battle.....the decision was made to close .01% of facilities. Nobody in the agency wanted to fight that battle with the public. So we end up with lots of bad, little used recreation sites instead of providing quality facilities that we could maintain.
4) Eyeman and government costs. The issue is not tax revenues. It is tax breaks for large corporations in Washington state and health care and other social service costs. Yeah, I know corporations do NOT pay taxes only collect them, but in the case of Washington state it meant people like the Sultan of Brunai paid Washington state taxes. Large corporations are also very efficient at collecting taxes. Right now in Washington, the tax burden is on consumers and small business. Even with that tax revenues are at record highs.
Health care and other social service costs. A friend that follows the state budget says that health care is where all the state money is going. Social service costs are difficult to cut.....so we cut higher education, state parks and those type of programs instead. Have a discussion with YOUR legislator about YOUR priorities.
5) Government regulation. Yes, the government regulates itself and spends lots of money on paperwork in the process. I had secured funding for a no-brainer move of a campground to protect fisheries. The studies and NEPA documents when completed took the ENTIRE campground construction money!! I ended up shifting funds just to get it built, since the permit would expire in about five years or so.
Public land funding levels have not really changed that much over 40 years....but the money now is spend on studies instead of "real stuff".
The good news is as the baby boom generation ages and dies, health care costs will fall. The bad news is that demand for public lands will also fall given current demographics. In 20 years, the issue will be keeping public lands in public ownership since very few people will care about them.
Recreation is just one benefit of public lands. We really need to maintain public access to ALL public lands and keep them in public ownership.
In the short run, it will be about fees. Soon the discussion will shift to "should we have public lands" since we cannot afford them. Get ready for that fight.
Very true. I don't care if you are democrats or republicans, corporations should NOT be people and have outsized influence compared to the citizenry. Most of "our" corporations aren't even Americans in truth, that's why they are called MULTI-national. They avoid taxes by stashing money all over the globe, most recent example Apple, and some wiggle out of paying a dime in taxes, e.g. GE. Oh, and they collaborate with the government and snope on you too!
As long as they get their way, by lobbying and most recently buying elections via super PACs and a million other loopholes, we the people will have to deal with less everything to balance priorities.
As long as they get their way, by lobbying and most recently buying elections via super PACs and a million other loopholes, we the people will have to deal with less everything to balance priorities.
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