Sometimes when you're on the water, it's hard to believe what you hear about fewer and fewer people getting into the sport. Same with hunting: When you read that fewer and fewer hunting licenses are being sold each year, it's hard to sometimes believe that when all you see around you are orange vests, or guys sitting in your favorite duck blind when you arrive at 4:30 AM to secure your spot.

When you have a passion, I think it's important to invite others to partake. Take a buddy fishing after showing him how to do basic casts in the yard. Maybe he'll take to it. Maybe not. Most importantly is to get kids involved so they grow up in the sport. By doing this you're doing your part to attract the right kind of people to the sport. But even if that happens, small retailers stand the chance of going out of business simply because it's hard to compete with big box stores and online retailers. I think things like the rising cost of real estate (commercial rent) may have as much or more to do with their demise than less new fly-fishermen to the industry.

So, would more people to the sport have staved off the demise of many small shops? Probably not. Just an uneducated hunch. Another important reason to get kids/adults started in the sport is to ensure that we have stewards of the resource in the future. The demise of the small shop is certainly a sad thing, but without them we can still get our gear. The demise of the resource has a far more dire consequence. Take a kid fishing...introduce a buddy to fishing.

 

Very good post Dan.

It's always a tough thing for people to balance the overall health of their hobby with the need for new people (and the "annoyance" those newbies might bring). Golfing is a great example of this. If you think that fly fishers are pissy about new people clogging up their space, try hanging out on a golf course for a while. But just like fly shops, golf shops/courses are starving for new players and overall rounds per year are down (and getting worse) at most courses.

 

i don't think there's one cause to any of it, more like a culmination of a lot of things. i've never had the shops that i was loyal to close on me, so i can't speak from any experience there. but i do support my local shop every chance i get. in the past few months alone i've bought 4 rods, 3 reels, waders, a pontoon boat, multiple lines and accessories from pacific fly fishers because of the outstanding service i get. knowing full well i could have found ways to get all of it a lot cheaper by using the internet. but that guy at the big box store, or some faceless internet shop isn't going to let me use their personal set of fins for my pontoon for my trip i was taking that day because the ones i ordered hadn't come in (michael bennett has loaned me gear on multiple occasions).

sorry, i'm just rambling.

 

(michael bennett has loaned me gear on multiple occasions).

Michael is a good guy with a great shop. It's just a shame that it's over an hour from my house.

 

dude, did you seriously buy ANOTHER rod that was not a spey..... Tell me its not true.

 

i'm working 20hrs a week in overtime. a spey is in my near future, don't worry

 

Better to give a few more bucks out of pocket to the local shop guy who gives a rat's ass than the Big Box Boys...this is coming from a young guy working to support a family. I couldn't look a local guy in the face and ask him to fix gear I bought at SportWally WarehouseWorld. Support local business.

 

"...few months alone i've bought 4 rods, 3 reels, waders, a pontoon boat, multiple lines and accessories..."

After a while, you have all the rods, reels, pontoon boats, etc. that you need for your avocation. So if newbies are diminishing and "we" have our base tools, what are we buying? (Rhetorical ?) I buy a few flies and accessories but even with flies I probably have a 3-4 year supply. There's just not that much other stuff that I want let alone need.

Randy

 

"...few months alone i've bought 4 rods, 3 reels, waders, a pontoon boat, multiple lines and accessories..."

After a while, you have all the rods, reels, pontoon boats, etc. that you need for your avocation. So if newbies are diminishing and "we" have our base tools, what are we buying? (Rhetorical ?) I buy a few flies and accessories but even with flies I probably have a 3-4 year supply. There's just not that much other stuff that I want let alone need.

Randy

eh, i've always been into gear, so i don't think i'll ever stop. when i was in a touring band and owned a recording studio i bought a new guitar amp every month. it never ended.

 

I think the core of flyfishermen has remained the same, but there was the influx of the rich SOB's who thought they were Brad Pitt and surged sales and bought all kinds of crap, made a trip to Belize and called it a day. We're on the back side of the surge. Those of us who've flyfished since we were 12 will always be here. It's up to us to support our shops as best we can. Not to turn this into a Cabela's thread (I'll buy socks or camo at Cabela's!), but us core fishermen need to keep our core shops up and running. They keep us fishing.

Jeff

 

In regards to how "we fly fishers play a role". I've been a gear guy most of my life and just took up fly fishing because of a fly-fishing only AK trip. I could be considered a latecomer to the Brad Pitt lemming wave thought that's now what drove me to start fly fishing. In fact, I was appauled by the equipment price. Anyway...

My opinion in general is, if you go to any brick and mortar business you go there for the physical experience of actually touching, manipulating (i.e getting the "feel" for) a given piece of equipment. In fly fishing, whether it's the quality of a tied fly or the flex of a rod, it's something you can't experience on the internet. I believe these shops have higher costs associated to having a physical display floor and knowlegable personell to man it. So, if you go to a shop, try out their gear and then buy it on the internet because it's cheaper, your are a cheap shit. And, I think that internet only businesses promote, encourage and enable (to their profit) that "cheap shit" mentality.

So, in that respect, if the lure of the internet causes you to buy something there that you have first experienced physically in a dealership then, yes, you are contributing to the demise of a fly shop.

Tim

 

In regards to how "we fly fishers play a role". I've been a gear guy most of my life and just took up fly fishing because of a fly-fishing only AK trip. I could be considered a latecomer to the Brad Pitt lemming wave thought that's now what drove me to start fly fishing. In fact, I was appauled by the equipment price. Anyway...

you realize that "fly fishing only" in ak means anything smaller than a quarter oz jig right? :rofl:

Local shops have high quality tools at a good price, and its hard to put a price on knowledge. I'd be suprised if the few fly shops around here go out of bussiness...

 

Since I've been here in Montan I haven't heard or seen one the was close to closing their doors. In the small town Of Dillon (pop around 3500) there are Four shops around that I have visited. But these shops have more to offer than just fishing gear. Clothes, Hunting gear, Fishing clothing, And of course fly fishing gear. But they also do a lot of Guided trips. This is what they all live for in the summer time.

Jim

 

What's wrong with wanting to be like Brad Pitt? That cat getts more ass than a donkey farm :rofl:

We are the customer base. Yes what we do makes a difference. If we buy stuff, they make money, if we don't, they don't make money. I know a fly shop missed out on a sale saturday morning because they weren't open yet, lucky for me the megalo mart down the street was. It sucked to have to buy chain store garbage but......

 

My take on this from a view point of working in the industry is that a lot of the blaime needs to be put on the manufacturers. They have sold out in the last few years selling high end gear to stores such as cabelas. For years those types of gear were sold only in Pro shops. In a state such as washington with a high sales tax you can save alot on a high end purchase by buying online, often getting free shipping also. So that is where my anger goes to. The big manufcturers who have been supported for years by the small pro shops and they got greedy.

 

The pendulum swings one way, then the other.
I'm not sure I can blame "The Movie" alone for the proliferation of anglers. The .com boom significantly increased the affluent (or effluent?) portion of the local society. This group buys big. It seems likely that the combination of "The Movie", the increase in the "Young and Affluent" and maybe other factors created a short term boom in the fly fishing industry. I don't have stats but will talk out of my butt (why stop now) and say that there are easily twice as many shops today as there were 15 years ago. I know this is true in Pugetopolis at least. It is likely that there are now more shops than the current fly fishing base can support at today's brick and mortar rents. I buy local and encourage friends to do the same. IMO, we are extremely lucky here in that there are many great fly shops in the area. I'm saddened to see any of them go because I've found great staff in nearly all of them. But, it seems inevitable that some will close as we reach equilibrium.

 

It is all about competition. You must offer good product selection, fair prices and great service to stay in business these days no matter what business. There is a local shop that I use and they have treated me very well. I recently went in to try a rod. They had a similar but slighly differnt rod and said they would order what I wanted and would be there in a week. After about a month I still had not heard anything from them and noticed a great sale online on a different rod so I purchased it. Last summer White's went out of the fishing business. I asked this same shop what they planned to do to get those customers? Said nothing that they would find them that they were they best shop in town??? Could also do alot more to get you back like having a frequent flier program for buying flies (box store 1 mile down the road sells flies for 1/2 the price), ect. Nice guys but need to be more agressive about getting business, especially since they will have the 'C' store 15 miles away.

 

Could also do alot more to get you back like having a frequent flier program for buying flies (box store 1 mile down the road sells flies for 1/2 the price), ect. Nice guys but need to be more agressive about getting business, especially since they will have the 'C' store 15 miles away.

Interesting point about the frequent flier program. Avid Angler, here in the Lake Forest Park/Kenmore area, offers discounts after a customer buys X amount of flies over the year.

Those flies sold at Sportsman's Warehouse, just a mile down the road, although 1/2 the price of what is offered at the fly shop, are maybe 1/2 the quality of those flies sold at the fly shop. The shop's hackle is much better, tied more uniformly, better hooks, more durable - been there, done that.

 

For sure I support my local fly shops. I have bought several high end rods, and four or five reels this year, but I am getting into spey and doing my first warm saltwater trip to Belize the first of the month.

I have a different reason to consider, besides all of the good things said. I fly myself out to fish. I fish 70 days plus in Alaska and over 100 days a year. I fly hundreds of hours per year, mostly in pursuit of fish. Avgas costs me now about $70-$100 per flight hour depending where I get it in the "bush". So if I break a rod, it might cost me 1/2 of it's value just to get to a post office. So why buy some mail-order piece of junk made overseas even if it has a lifetime warranty? It is meaningless. And likewise, if my local guys provide any shred of information that saves some flight time or searching time to find fish, the value is huge. If you come to Alaska, same for your lodges or guides, it costs them money to explore, find new places, and costs are huge to get things out to remote location in terms of time as well as money. Last year I was sight spotting big pods of Arctic Char (30"+ fish) out of my Supercub in the Arctic north of the Arctic Circle. I had got in a rush and not cased my Sage XP at my last fishing spot, and broke the tip section pulling out of the airplane after I landed next to the next big pod of char. I was pissed at myself, and 150 miles from the nearest village that would have a post office. But I smiled and reached in the plane baggage compartment and pulled out my spare Sage XP 7wt sitting in a case in my plane with reel and leader all spooled up. Some might ask why have two of the same $1000 rod/reels, but that day made it worth it. I wasn't pissed for long as I yarded screaming char that would humble steelhead out of the hole I had landed at.

And of course my local shop took care of me when I returned. As a good customer, if I need a rod or reel due to one happening to fail, without doubt they will offer me one to use until the warranty return will come back if I need. With a short fishing season, you can't beat that! Its only money, and you can't take it with you when you die.

:beer2:

 

flyshops come and flyshops go, like any other businesses. We "owe" them nothing. If one wants to open a shop and it fails, well, there may be 1002 reasons, but it failed. So be it. Over the last 25 years more or less there in the North King- Snohomish county area many shops have come and gone.
I can think of one guy that has ,indeed, lasted but for some reason isn't thought of as a "flyshop". But then , hey, he's still operating and "serving" the fishers that do go to his shop.

 

That's the attitude that is contributing to the closure of many of the shops.

I love (substantial sarcasm here) these guys that want and expect a small shop there to provide them information, but don't feel like they should help keep these little guys in business so they will be there when the customer wants information. Ted's is still open for a number oof different reasons . . . and although Mike does have a heatlthy inventory of fly fishing materials, he could hardly be considered a fly shop. Most small shops aren't luck enough to own their own building and property, and rent can be a substantial expense. For most shop owners, it's a labor of love; these folks typically aren't making much of a living.

Own and run a small business like one of these some time. The modern customer has their own interests at heart; they'll go wherever the best deal is presented. For most folks, including the upcoming generations, it's 'all about me'. It's a sign of the times. The person who buys a reel and a few spools on ebay, and the gets pissed because the local fly shop charges him for spooling backing on his ebay reel and spools. Heck, I was in a shop recently where a customer was bragging to the shop owner about the great deal on ebay for a new fly reel. Man, I almost fell down. The shop owner was very cool about it, but this customer exemplifies a lot of what is happening; it's 'all about me'.

The big boxes and the internet - the little shops can't compete. It's math. I know several experienced folks in the fly fishing industry, and according to them it's a sign of the times. Some things are just an 'is', and this is just one of them.

 

Cabelas seems to have the same prices on name brand (sage, Winston ect..) items as the local fly shops do. I'm pretty sure that the manufactures of these products set the price, so if it's the same to me, I'll buy locally.
F.

 

When they are at retail that is correct. They will offer a larger selection than most fly shops I have been in can afford to carry. Where they will really hurt them is when they have reddington rs3 rods for $129 (reg 199) or Loomis streamdance for $220 (reg 350) among others. They recently had these prices, hard to turn down if you are in the market.

 

Four active threads on fly shops today. Guessing it's a bit slow over there.

In any case Jofus wins this one (and I see a number of good posts). Caught my attention, made me laugh my a$$ off and made a relevant point. Nice:

What's wrong with wanting to be like Brad Pitt? That cat getts more ass than a donkey farm

We are the customer base. Yes what we do makes a difference. If we buy stuff, they make money, if we don't, they don't make money. I know a fly shop missed out on a sale saturday morning because they weren't open yet, lucky for me the megalo mart down the street was. It sucked to have to buy chain store garbage but......

Anyhow, I understand the sentiment behind supporting your local shop…we say it almost daily. Fine but doesn't work for me. The economy I know is based on individuals making choices that benefit self-interest. Shop's responsibility is to figure out what that is and provide it. Plain and simple. That doesn't mean trying it out at PFF then buying it on ebay. It means each retail source, Wally's, Freddy's, Michael's, whichever, serves a different need. If I run out of floatant and I'm already at FM I'll throw it in the cart and call it good. If I'm upgrading a rod and don't know my backside from what I'm looking for, I'll visit the shop, try stuff out, get good advice and pay for it. That said, we really are spoiled, just like Dillon, MO. Good number of shops, pretty much all of them nice to walk into.

 

There was a time when I had more time than money. My local shop was always willing to trim off some of their profit to help me get into better gear. Wally-world would not do that.

Now things have changed. I wish I could take every Friday off for steelhead. My local shop is still in business. I still buy most all of my gear from them. I would never ask for a discount. The next, upcoming poor young guy can have the discount.

 

One of the things that struck me when I first moved to Montana back in 1979 at age 25 was that fly fishing was the norm. Yes, there were some folks using spinners, but for the most part, nearly everyone used flies on the rivers and streams. Lakes were a mixture of bait, spin fishing, and flies. I suspect it is because fly fishing for trout has been pretty much a way of life in Montana for 80 years and as such has been the cultural norm for river and stream fishing there. There is also a strong predilition amongst Montanans to buy local whenever possible because that keeps the money moving around the local community instead of sending it out of state.

 

I live in Woodinville and used to visit a shop a few minutes from my home. The last time I went there I had a hilarious conversation with the guy behind the counter. He asked me what I did for a living (I informed him that I was a junior high science teacher) he proceded to tell me that kids had no respect for teachers because they had no real world experience. It was pretty funny listening to him, almost like speaking with Dwight Schroot from the office. He proceded to rattle on about a wide range of topics including how he had the ability to spot a "B.S. er" from a mile away. He talked to me about guiding in Alaska and how if he and I were competing guides everyone would choose him because of my short haircut and brand new Patagonia chestwaders (He was close on that one, I actually had purchased a new pair of Simms a couple of years previous). He went on about how much he knew about fish and how difficult it was for people like me to really get to know a fishery (I have a degree from the UW in Fisheries Science). He also elaborated on how he was working on his business degree for the past several years and how much his professors respected him because he wasn't like these young kids who were hurrying through school just to make a bunch of money. I went back a few weeks later and the shop was closed. Go figure.
-JE

 

I read an article recently (I think it was in an issue of the FFF magazine) that was like others that I read. It mentioned the decline of interest in hunting & fishing in general. Reasons for the decline that were speculated included less time families are spending together - and reduced freetime in general, kids spending more time on the internet and plugged into i-pods, etc instead of in the outdoors (just look at the specs on increased obesity in kids and teens), and an increased urbanization of the country. It seems to me that such larger trends probably have a much greater role in closing flyshops and gunshops than the attitude of other fly fishermen on the water. (Who cares what some jerk might say or do anyway?) - - - So perhaps the 'pie' of available fly fishing customers is getting smaller. I like going to small shops that have knowledgeable, personable staff people. The difference between what they offer and the big box stores is miles apart. I'm willing to pay a little extra money to support fly and gunshops that offer this kind of service and atmosphere. On the other hand, small shops with owners/employees with "an attitude" won't get my business, and if they do the same to other customers they will perish. There's just too much competition out there to put up with that kind of treatment. - - -

 

I don't know man. This is just an observation but I don't buy that "less people are fishing and hunting" stuff. Yeah license sales are down, but every year I see more and more people on the water. I don't mean a few more, I mean a significant amount of people. Places where I knew I could fish a fresh run even at 8:00 am have truned into elbow to elbow combat fests and the traditional combat zones aren't seeing any less pressure. This confuses the hell out of me.

 

My theory on that is - 'the power of the internet', as well as rags like Fishing and Hunting news that publishes 'river maps' and 'hot spots'. The learning curve is way down compared to what is was 10 years ago (as far as figuring out the basic what, where, when, and how. Back then, if you wanted to find out about a where to go for chum salmon, if you even realized there was a fun fishery for them, you didn't have many options. Maybe the local shop would point you to a few spots, but that's about it.

Today, you have realtime reports at your fingertips. Some times, people will even report on what rock they were standing on. You get pics of fresh caught fish that motivates you to head out. You know what rivers are producing better than others. You can see if the river is blown out without leaving your warm dry house. You can read lake stocking reports, etc etc etc.

So yes, less people, but those that are fishing are fishing more often, and fishing 'smarter'.

 

Makes sense. In that case, I would like to report that I just caught a dozen 60 pound king salmon in the clogged drainage ditch that runs along the rear parking lot of the albertsons in monroe. This is the best fishing spot I've ever seen. I saw another guy catch a 320 pound sea run steelhead halibut underneath a shopping cart that had fallen into the ditch.

Hopefully that helps my cause :rofl:

 

You may think that is funny - but I know guys on this board who actually do post bogus info to steer people away from their favorite spots... won't mention any names....

Example: "forget the snoqualmie, the sky is on fire this week!!" Meanwhile, they continue fishing the snoqualmie (or whatever river they were directing people away from...).

 

I dunno, I thought it was funny. :beer2: