The whine is, thanks to higher mileage standards, there isn't enough gas tax to get the "job" done (fancy that!). So the workgroup is looking for GPS "volunteers" so they can work out how to come up with more money.

Unintended (or unforeseen) consequences. The moral to this and like stories and proposals is that government is hopelessly hooked on our tax base like a crack addict. Why not just simply raise the gas tax? It gets them to the same end goal and without adding yet another component, cost (probably kick-back) to the GPS industry. Oh wait, being able to track not only your road miles but where you go and when... nothing to see here. I've said it before that WA and OR are in a race to see who can be most like Kalifornia.

 

Well, what do you know, it's 2016, life is complex and expensive at the top, and that's a reality many can't get on board with.

The gas tax has been raised, many times. The last time I spoke to our lobbyist, he shared that he didn't think there would be any more raises there as it simply wasn't covering the gap as a couple of you have also stated.

government is hopelessly hooked on our tax base like a crack addict.

Says someone that is hopeless hooked on the services his government provides.

I know some people who think this is brilliant,

Not brilliant, but it's something. There is really nothing stopping you from getting involved in the process and sharing your ideas if you feel inclined. The discussion has been going on for years in Olympia...

tax those who use the roads. Why should bicyclist Joe pay?

I love cycling, and when we lived in the city, rode every chance I could. I still had a car, and payed the same taxes as everyone else. Moot point for the most part.

In general, I guess I'm not sure how you guys think the roads and bridges, and mass transit will be built, and maintained, at this point this thread just reads like uninformed, uninvolved oldsters having a winge.

 

I know some people who think this is brilliant, tax those who use the roads. Why should bicyclist Joe pay? Why should Sally Joe Rail rider pay? .....Well then why should some pay taxes for SAM, city parks, public schools, etc, if they dont use them. I don't like this. Regardles of how many people believe everyone should use van pools, rail and other public transit, it is not possible. Some need a car/truck for their business, some need to carry x amount of equipment, others have second jobs and public transportation doesn't accomadate them. I don't like it when someone looks down their nose at you because you don't use the bus, they try to convince you that it would be better for you...No it is not for ME! As for our Politicians....they are not pro-active but rather reactionary, but by then the damage has been done..$$$$$$$$

 

Regardles of how many people believe everyone should use van pools, rail and other public transit, it is not possible. Some need a car/truck for their business, some need to carry x amount of equipment, others have second jobs and public transportation doesn't accomadate them. I don't like it when someone looks down their nose at you because you don't use the bus, they try to convince you that it would be better for you...No it is not for ME!

It is clear they just need a little more time with you .

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Jersey_Turnpike

 

Ever driven in Chicago. It's a toll road nightmare. They have these little boxes that you have in your cars to catch the tolls where ever you drive. Tourists pay at all the booths. Residents fly down the freeway and the little box in the front window catches your toll. My Son lives there and he gave me one of those boxes so I wouldn't have to stop and every toll booth.

But they are always improving the freeways. Those tolls pay for the improvements. I 90 tolls start at the Wisc boarder and end up in Indiana some place.

 

There's no such thing as "public" transportation here, and for those effete snobs who "only" use public trans, guess what? How do you think your food, clothing, housewares and all the other shit you buy gets to the stores? It sure as hell ain't by bus! So no matter what, we ALL use the roads. But I have to say, here I'm agreeing with FSA about the "gubmint" using GPS to track my movements-the first little toady who tries to put that thing on somebody's car out here will not like the reception he'll receive.

 

What would happen if we gave them all or our money, every damn dime, and they still didn't have enough?

 

You poor people are just taxed to death. And when you have an election you keep voting them into office. It's time for a changing of the guard.

 

It's time for a changing of the guard.

11-08-2016... pretty much did that.

 

Tax the rural farmers, great. You guys in Rosalia or Davenport..and 30 miles in each way..heck..you hard working folk in Sprague and outlying areas, your Big Mac trips will now coast about $20 a patty on that super-size run.

Yet, Ferrari stud in Medina asks for more free ketchup.. more money freed up.

 

I saw this proposal in the World and it pissed me off too. I'm not sure that improved fuel efficiency is cutting revenue as much as falling gas prices; $2.47/gallon here in Ephrata. I guess the part that pisses me off the most is it seems that those of us who choose (yes, choose) to live on this side of the mountains, where distances increase dramatically when you go shopping, the doctor, to a movie, fishing, whatever.... will end up paying more than folks that can drive six blocks to Freddies (51 miles for me, one way). I would just LOVE to downsize the government of this state.

Thanks for getting my BP up there Master Chief!

And yeah, uninformed whiney oldster. lmpht

 

I'm not sure that improved fuel efficiency is cutting revenue as much as falling gas prices; $2.47/gallon here in Ephrata.

Huh?? It's a flat rate per-gallon gas tax and has nothing to do with the price of gas...

 

A per mile road use tax sorta' makes sense in a user fee and pay-to-play sense, assuming that all vehicles cause the same amount of wear and tear on roads. They don't. Large heavy vehicles cause more wear than small lighter weight vehicles. Large vehicles generally use more fuel than small ones, so the existing state and federal gas tax makes good sense.

If the current gas tax revenue stream isn't enough to maintain and expand the state's road system, it makes more sense (to me) to raise the gas tax. The gas tax is efficient to collect and comes to the state at approximately the rate roads (and fuel) are used. A per mile road use tax looks to be less efficient, with higher administrative costs - a factor that government seems to seldom consider - and it's pretty clearly a 4th Amendment invasion of privacy. The proposal should be DOA.

As for electric cars, some other method of road tax is needed. Currently WA charges $100 a year for electrics, last I heard.

Sg

 

Washington has the second highest gasoline tax in the nation. Seattle is in the top 10 of worst traffic in the nation.

So how does this potential change improve that? The tax is for mileage. Being stuck in traffic does not increase the number of miles driven. The state could actually lose money since more gas will be used just sitting in traffic...

I can understand (maybe) the thinking that with the many hybrids on the road that they are not paying their 'fair share' but at the same time the carbon footprint is much better which is an added benefit for all. But hybrids are only about 10% of the vehicles on the road so is taxing them the answer?

Maybe there should be a tax on vehicles with studded tires since they have a more detrimental affect on the roads?

How about paying a fee to not having the government watch our travels via GPS?

 

So how does this potential change improve that? The tax is for mileage. Being stuck in traffic does not increase the number of miles driven. The state could actually lose money since more gas will be used just sitting in traffic...

More unintended (unforeseen) consequences. In addition to the tax/gallon, they could include a tax on both miles driven and time on the road... that should cover the issue (opportunity) you raise.

What would happen if we gave them all or our money, every damn dime, and they still didn't have enough?

Don't all answer at once.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8E_zMLCRNg

 

Figuring out how to tax highway use is complicated, despite the best efforts of both politicians and anti-tax advocates to simplify it. Providing adequate transportation options to a large and complicated state, with dense populations in some areas and extremely sparse populations in others makes it so. Costs for construction and maintenance have to come from somewhere and for the most part, people and governments agree it should be borne largely by users (although we pay at the grocery store, too, for the cost of moving goods to market over those roads).

As Salmo said, impact is a function of miles AND weight of vehicles, hence special taxes on large commercial vehicles. The two options most often considered are a flat tax per gallon and the recent suggestion of a per-mile tax. I've always thought that having the tax be some sort of sliding, inverse percent, rather than per gallon tax might help achieve both the beneficial effect of keeping revenues up when gas prices drop (a higher percent tax when prices go down), as well as moderating the impact when prices are high, AND helping to even out excess consumption of fossil fuels (and purchasing of gas-guzzling vehicles) when prices are low. In either event, in my opinion, we pay way too little in gas taxes. Try going just about anywhere else on earth to see how cheap we have it here.

An alternative would be to develop a realistic carbon tax designed to accommodate both gas guzzling and electricity consuming vehicles. Ideally it would drop for electric/hybrid vehicles as our electricity sources continue to shift towards renewables, but not reach zero, because they still create demand for and impact maintenance of highways (since electric and hybrid vehicles typically are much lighter than others, their impact is reduced).

Of course, here in the PNW, we would also need to include a "salmon tax" for electric vehicles to somehow account for the negative impact of hydropower on our fisheries (a factor too little considered by renewable energy advocates who embrace hydropower).

D

 

Here an article from KIRO 7 (12/13/16):

http://www.kiro7.com/news/local/washington-to-begin-testing-a-pay-by-mile-tax/475740035

 

Some have expressed wonder over why they don't just raise the gas tax. It's simple:

You can't tax people on stuff they don't buy. As electrics and hybrids increase their market share, that means fewer people, buying less gas. As long as the tax is on mileage traveled, everyone pays the tax, even when cars are powered by hydrogen and fly. So you see, from a tax-dependent politician's perspective, the proposal is, well, BRILLIANT!

 

Not to a Salesman that travels the roads for a living....the employer or the employee is going to incur the expense....and the tax right off is not all that great.

 

Don't believe everything you read on the internet.

If you look at their methodology they have defined dependency as low state spending and high Federal spending within the state borders. Since much Federal spending is required within the boundaries while state spending is optional. Yep, red states will always be defined as dependent since they spend less money on a per capita basis than blue states.

This is a good or bad thing depending on your politics. But be aware that most Federal spending within states is related to poor and old people, social security, public lands, military facilities and transportation. Which of those do you want to cut for states like Montana or Idaho?? Don't you go there on occasion??

I did sign up to get a GPS unit and part of Washington's pilot program on charging by the mile. I am hopeful, that they will do some "analysis" on the data that is provided.

The east/west split on transportation funding will get some more data points. We will finally know how many miles western Washington residents drive in eastern Washington!!! Likewise, the state of Washington refunds the gas tax monies for miles driven on non-public roads (Forest Service, DNR, etc) for recreation projects throughout the state. That would also be an interesting finding to see if that program is having monies diverted to highway funding.

I like data.....I share your concerns about the 4th Amendment and other privacy issues, but seems like that battle is lost. Hell, Safeway and Costco know more about me than the Federal government.

 

Not saying I support this tax, particularly because of the GPS in every car, I don't like that, but.... This is how a democracy works. Everyone pays taxes and when the revenues are allocated some people benefit from specific things more than others...

I love my home state of WA, but the worst f*cking thing about living here is this "us vs. them" mentality between the two sides of the mountains. I live on the west side but spend most of my free time chasing fish and birds on the east side and have been doing that my entire life. I've never considered eastern WA to be any less of my home than the west side. Yet, still, there is all this animosity towards me and others who simply opted to live where the job market was better. All of you guys complaining about the big-city prius-driving liberals who might end up net beneficiaries of a tax like this should keep in mind that EVERY SINGLE county east of the mountains receives more money from the state's general fund than they put in. Meaning you all get more of my tax dollars than I do, and I don't even drive an electric car to balance it out. Eastern WA is heavily subsidized by the west side, so get over it!

 

EVERY SINGLE county east of the mountains receives more money from the state's general fund than they put in. Meaning you all get more of my tax dollars than I do, and I don't even drive an electric car to balance it out. Eastern WA is heavily subsidized by the west side, so get over it!

So where does all this largesse go? I sure as hell don't see anything. The roads are the same, there's no new "infrastructure" except some of these dipshit "roundabouts" in Wenatchee, where a fucking stop sign would be just fine, and get the same job done, for a LOT LESS cost. there's no new mass transit anywhere, the phone lines and such are not being upgraded, etc etc. so HOW exactly am I benefiting from all this money being dumped on us? some of the county roads on the east side are still gravel/dirt! Law enforcement? HA!! we want something done, we have to do it ourselves: fish & game?? Nope, nothing there either; same with the county fire department. Nothing new at all. So where, exactly, does all this go?

 

I just love the idea of a per mile charge. If it was to replace tab costs. The state really likes to stick it to me for the motor home. Not fair, it only uses the roads a few times a year.

 

Pretty sure it won't be a "in lieu of tax" but rather a "additive tax". Also, word has it they are redefining what constitutes a motorhome .

 

I just hope they tax everyone for the new Soda Arena Complex

 

A lot of transport and tour companies use gps to make sure their drivers are obeying the speed limit. Once installed it probably wouldn't take long for the politicians to figure out all kinds of ways to save enforcement money utilizing the technology. I would sure hate for the government to have this capability on my vehicles..... I would be a speeding ticket dispensary...... It would be like photo radar on steroids....

 

Here's a novel idea:

Why don't we all educate ourselves on where all of our tax dollars are going.

If we actually looked into how they are spending our money, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Personally, I can't believe we're even acknowledging this. There's almost zero, ZERO accountability in this state. We cant even actually track most of the dollars going into the General Fund.

Instead, to sound "reasonable" or "educated", we entertain this crap. Why should we expect anything different. We just keep re- electing the same people in charge, expecting things to get better. Unreal...

 

Here's a novel idea:

Why don't we all educate ourselves on where all of our tax dollars are going.

If we actually looked into how they are spending our money, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Personally, I can't believe we're even acknowledging this. There's almost zero, ZERO accountability in this state. We cant even actually track most of the dollars going into the General Fund..

When I was working and did economic analysis I loved this state of Washington agency.

http://www.ofm.wa.gov

Lots of great information. It is all written in government-eze. But any question you might have about the state is probably found somewhere within its web pages. Here are some areas worth looking in more detail.

http://www.ofm.wa.gov/forecasting/default.asp

And this data book is a great summary if you want to learn more about this state on county basis.

http://www.ofm.wa.gov/databook/default.asp

If you find a newspaper article on a specific state program....check out OFM and see what "official" documents are available.

 

When NASA began to send people into space, they quickly found that pens wouldn't write in zero-G. They spent 165 million dollars developing a pen that would work, wouldn't be affected by heat or cold, etc etc. The Russians used a pencil...your tax dollars at work

And Krusty; I paid into my retirement fund each month for almost 35 years, and the University matched my contributions as a condition of my employment. I don't qualify for social security, having opted out of that system when I was in my early 20's. No medicare, no SSI, and I live (quite nicely, I might add) on only what I've contributed plus the conditions of my indentured servitude for that time. These are in NO fucking WAY "entitlements"!

 

Good for you!

Most recipients of SS get far more out of it (even adjusted for inflation) than they ever put into the system.

But no medicare? Then you must be covered either by pension medical, or military retiree tricare...both are 'entitlements'.

 

and where is king county in that.There is the problem maybe if we stopped wasting all this money on the mass transit system that just benefits seattle and that area.Then maybe we wouldn't be in this mess remember we as a state voted no on that several times but yet we still get that crap rammed down our throats.

 

Good point! Doesn't seem to make much of a difference to these cretins though, does it!

 

I can think of several ways to get them my mileage figures without installing a gps in my car. All that is needed is something that reads the odometer...or they could just ask me like my insurance company does...or they could look at it themselves when I buy my tabs...

 

A per-mile tax doesn't seem that irrational to me. It wouldn't be that hard to do without GPS; mileage could be verified once a year and then done via state tax return.

 

Here in California we've just been informed that in order to help offset the CHP retirement, which is presently underfunded, we are going to be charged an additional $10/year for tags. This is on top of what I believe is the highest registration fees in the country. I don't mind paying my share but CHP and some other public safety positions are using the 3% @ age 50 formula; that equates to 90% of highest salary. To make matters worse, so many are going out on a disability, tax free, they've coined a name for it; Chiefs Disease.